September 11 effects

Amen.

I wish I had all of the exact statistics, but you'll find that the majority of citizens in our country(ies) are poorly educated (if at all) and trained to believe that big brother always knows best. You really start wondering about a society that is okay with people putting in nuclear power plants to make energy rather than windmills. It's not that there aren't better alternatives for the stupidity that goes on in our modern age, it's that there aren't better brains in the world. Things will only get worse in America while the Democratic-Republican system continues...they're only concerned about votes and images and not about just doing what needs to be done...One day things will change. hopefully.

Not an American myself, but I believe many Americans are not expecting much from their politicians anyway eg yes Bush sux, so what? They have many credible professionals in Finance, IT etc.. and those should cover politicians. They may be aware of their nation involvement in lies like WMD in Iraq but as long as it doesnt hit their own turf it is not really going to open the eyes.

People are purposfully numbed by media. In most places, the only time when you'll see something interesting, exposing the governement's expoits is late at night when ratings are low and noone is watching anyway. And even if someone sees it, the most common reaction is "oh well" and they sink deeper into their couch. Because, what's the point? The peace movements in the 60's did accomplish something, but very little, and look at the numbers they had. Lots and lots of people protesting.... So what CAN be done? The only thing that can be done, for sure, is to work on your own consciousness, and educate yourself, and don't fall into the same traps like many others. If everyone can do that, we're good. Offcourse, everyone CAN'T do that. But still, an induvidual has somewhat of an influence over his environment, and by changing Self, one changes his immidiate environment, and sometimes more. But is it really enough? It's hard, very hard, and saddening, that when you know that even if you have a million people protesting, nothing is going to change. But maybe it is in exactly that line of thought in which the fuel lies for the passivity of today's masses.

I recently stumbled upon this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2397496401234089687&q=secret&hl=en

from 1987, the comments of which seem surprisingly actual.
That same day I visited a newssite in which i found the prime minister of my country giving a bush-like speach about war on terror and taking away the feeding grounds of terrorism, which kindof ticked me off. It's like the bushitian stuff is a virus spreading all over the world. So what I did was, I sent the above video to the main tv station in our country, telling them that it's a good reminder of how power can corrupt in situations like this. The program manager accepted it and forwarded it to some of their news redactions. Not sure if it will ever air, probably not, but at least it's a small effort anyone can do to help inform the public. (not that they'll care... but do it anyway ;) )

I never asked my grandfather why he didn't try to stop them. He was in the SA.

My Grandfather *helped* stop him. Many people were brainwashed by them. Jews were killed by them in mass genocide. DO NOT compare President Bush to that kind of evil. You speak of the US government saying that they prematurely label us as terrorists in a "guilty until proven innocent" attitude, meanwhile you label the government of the United States guilty when there is no proof. Personally I think they're innocent, but I do not want to get into that right now. I'm not here to try and change your ideas about President Bush, nor am I here to step them. I am here to say have a little respect please, and don't be so quick to hypocritically judge.

For those of you having problems with a little video called "Loose Change" here's a few links so you can avoid becoming ignorant towards the issue and do some research on the FACTS:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/12/02/17873401.php
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

Here's two more links (the spam filter wouldn't let me post them in the last post):
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/loose-marbles-i.html
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

Andrew, I'm all against bashing organisations/nations without basis. However, in this case, you're the one misinformed or misunderstanding the issue. The US government was the instigator of the Iraq war. The statistics provided by Niko on the number of deaths are proven and not in doubt (at least, not in doubt that there are LESS deaths than stated in his post). The US government HAS cut down on the civil rights of its citizens. Again, proven without a doubt (if the Patriot Act didn't curb previous rights - there would be no need for the new laws).

The only thing "ambiguous" or unproven in Niko's statement is the reasons and/or motivations behind the war & civil rights limitations. I'm guessing your opinion on this is that it is all for the good of the people. Whereas myself & others feel that life and politicians are never that straight forward (and hence there are other, less noble, reasons for alot of what has happened).

--EK

A comparison to Hitler? You're kidding me right!

I have just lost all respect for you.

The comparison was not made to Hitler. It was made to the Nazi regime, which ??started?? as a relatively benign political pary for the worker. It became the nightmare it was through small steps.

It was this "small step" approach to the loss of civil liberties I understood to be the point of the comparison. I do not believe anyone here (including Niko, though I may be wrong) equates Bush & the US Administration with Hitler & the Third Reich. For one thing, Bush/US Govt have nowhere near the charisma, initelligence, or political astuteness that has been attributed to Hitler/3rd Reich.

I do not agree with the "scale" of Niko's opinions. But he makes good logical points that people (primarily Americans) ignore because they get emotional about their "nation being attacked" - when it is the government that is being mentioned. Countries are (by & large) not judged by their main population but by the visible leadership. With Bush's polls at critically low levels in his own country, what else do you expect the rest of the world to think of him?

--EK

well 9/11 was no joke, and the UN, USA, etc, knew for a long time that afghanistan was harboring and supporting al qaeda.

on 9/11 should we have sat back in our la-z-boys and watched 3000 people die on TV and gone "gee that sucks..." and done nothing?
I will grant you that iraq was a mistake (nonetheless the right thing to do there now is to clean up our damn mess as best we can), but afghanistan should have known what was coming.

bush might be stupid, maybe dumb enough to be dangerous, but he's no hitler.

dear commenters, if you haven't read nikos text, read it again. He never compared anyone to hitler...

hmm, well, i'm not much into all this stuff going on but sometimes i wonder if those people living in Caves (Taliban/Afghan) were able to do something that BiG!

Its pretty old but do have a look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7AAgfZfqmc

Western Media is too strong to protect US' Ass and do whatever propaganda they feel like doing. Hats off to Galloway.

hi,,

THe first adminstration to try to take away civil liberties and use the consitution to do it, and anyone wonders if this administration can't be compared to germanies hitler..

It is NOT possible to tell other countries how to implement democratic societies, when the U.S. itself is incapable of it.

People wear blind folds and all of a sudden wake up and wonder oh dear what happened to our rights!!!

wake up.....

hi,,

The author states that he was horribly dissatisfied that there were no weapons of mass horror in doom 3 Movie , and I must pause to inquire why he feels a movie is worthless without violence ?

I guess its a generational thing ..My guess is your imagination isn't up to the task of finding pleasure in the quality of movies that came from days gone by.....

Everyone living in a (more or less) democratic country with a decent amount of education should know that as soon as Hitler is brought up in a discussion everything said or done has immediately lost all its credibility (the current regime in Iran made me choose this slightly longer form, otherwise this would have been true for each living person). Especially in the German speaking areas. And everyone here knows some politicians who still tried it and tremendously failed without the slightest chance of rehabilitation. Usually, I define the weakness of a political discussion by the duration until Hitler is mentioned-so guess what I think of one which starts with that X-(
So if I'd were asked for a plausible comparison (it was a comparison, don't tell me other things, it's not the style that counts but the intention) I'd have said that you can ask yourself why you did not picket the war in Iraq like the millions of people did for the war in Vietnam. But analogies are likely to fail, so don't tie me down to this one.
Oh, and Niko, I thought you were Austrian, not German. You know, the political borders have changed since 1938...
So let's hope the next political postings here have the required amount of savvy to distinguish them from statements of Mr Ahmadinedschad.

All I wanted to say that it's obvious that the previous generation did something really bad by simply doing nothing. Today everybody agrees about that. And I just hope that the current situation won't evolve into something where people will ask us why we didn't do something against it.
If someone is hypersensible to the word 'Hitler', then I'm sorry. I didn't and do not want to compare anyone to him. And if you've read my post you'll see that I didn't even blame Bush for anything. Of course not, because it is not his fault alone at all. It is too easy to blame one single person for everything. And BTW: yes, I'm from germany. Who cares about were I am living currently, that's one of the reasons why we've got the EU :)

Hi Comrades all,
It should be clear to everyone that we are living in the dystopia that we have read about in 1984 and Brave New World etc,.

9/11 and everything that it is has created (civil liberties stripped, "War on terror", anti-terror laws and the list goes on) was just what our authoritarian governments wanted to tip the balance between how we perceive the "citizen and the state relationship".

ID cards, fingerprinting Kids, EU databases which hold all information on us, biometric ID & passports. The governments we employ are using this make-believe "long war" to put any restrictions they wish on us whilst curbing our soveriegn freedoms....

It is time people to started to realise this:

We are NOT the subjects of our governments, THEY are the subjects of the citizens.

We need to redress this balance and tell our governments these lies and murders are not going to be tolerated by the people anymore. We will take back power from the corporations and the military-industrial complex which has raped this world.
It will happen, it always has

Vive La Revolution!!

One other point that should be made here...

I notice that we as humans have a habit of polarising who is right and who is wrong, for example the concensus is that the US government is to blame as opposed to the palestinians or the Israelis or Hezbollah or blah blah blah....

The fact is, the US government are being precieved as the bad guys at the moment becuase they still harbour imperialistic aims.... Throughout history, all of the imperialist empires have been perceived to be b@stards (quite rightly). The british empire last century, the Romans , The Ottomans, the list goes on.

The real enemy is not a single person or a single government, It is ALL the governments and ALL the banking institues and finance centres, the distorted and one sided media, the people who own the media, the people who run energy companies, the people who profit from war, fear and instability - the arms manufacturers (see banks), The whole cabal is to blame - that is the true 'axis' of evil that exists in this world..

But you know what? Theres not many of them compared to us...We outnumber them tens of millions to one.

I bet if we all got up and threw ourselves in front of 'The Machine' we could fix it and restore order from the chaos.

Just a thought.

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

Ok, so sorry for the sarcasm-I really did not knew you're from Germany. Which does not change that much, though, since citizens from both countries should pretty well know when to use such words IMHO.

Hybrid, I still think you are overreacting. Niko has now stated openly what I understood and commented on earlier. That is, he made no comparison between Hitler and Bush/US Administration. He was simply pointing out that complacency in the face of power abuse by the government (i.e. their severe curtailing of citizens rights in the name of "protecting us from terrorism") has to be addressed.

Should we forget the lessons taught to us by history because some people cringe at the mention of Hitler's name? I would hope that society is more mature than that.

--EK

Seriously Niko, you lost all crediblity to comment after you watched Loose Change and actually believed it was a documentary and not a conspiracy nut who created it.

I respect you as a programmer, but as someone with common sense about how the world worlds, Niko, you do not have a clue about how the world works.

As the world's only superpower we get the spotlight in every action. Every mistake is magnified. And no doubt the war in Iraq is a mistake. But we are not barbarians. There are no death camps, no torture camps. When a Pakistani student was singled out and misidentified recently in New York City, he was released and the people (yes, get this), some people on the streets of New York City apologized to him on the street for their governments actions. How do you think an American would have been treated in a similar situation in Tehran?

Even after the face of so much rhetoric most Americans still believe in individual rights. And the courts have shot down tons of injustices by our aggressive executive branch.

I used to believe we alone were in isolation, our problems in the United States alone were unique. Not so. After some traveling and some research I find the world is a much more complex place and they have many problems of their own.

For example, why don't you go to Malmo, Sweden sometime and see what things are like. Ask the Swedish women who have been taken advantage of, or the Muslim women who have been honor killed for trying to integrate in the society. Or the Danish, for the recently twarted terror plots. How about the Phillipines and the Muslim rebels, or how about Sudan. How about you ask how England feels about some of their own planning the attack, all in the name of religion or belief. How about Germany and its twarted terror attack on the subway system.

Every country is involved Niko. I can point to injustices everywhere. By the people, by the government, or by fanatics. And Germany is no picnic. But when I was ripped off for 250 euros in Hamburg 3 weeks ago by a German business, I didn't go running around on how bad Germany was. And I actually was personally affected. How has the United States personally harmed you?

You are highly intelligent Niko, but you lack perspective and the depth necessary to make these kinds of political statements.

no torture camps, what? Read this. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/09/11/matt-lauer-goes-after-bush-over-secret-prisons-and-torture/

Matthew -
In defence of niko - his original remark only made one reference to the US - that it instigated the war on terrorism. This is true. The US decided unilateraly to invade Iraq, despite protestations from the majority of the world.

There is absolutely no reason to take that remark personally, nobody is bashing America (the people), People are simply saying that the Bush regime has unleashed a world of shit for everybody else.

The majority of the world do appreciate that the average american is not clone of 'dubya and does indeed have an intellect and can articulate.

The Bush regime HAS affected people in the rest of the world directly and indirectly via our own authoritarian governments which follow suite and this was the only point that was made.

I'm aware of the miserable failure that is my hopeless government (UK) and I'm pretty sure niko is of his too.

Its just about time the US citizens threw that uneducated/overpriveleged muppet out of the white house (and into jail) and actually voted in a statesmen.

Dont be so offended - it wasnt a personal remark/attack

Also, Its grossly unfair to suggest that niko lacks perspective or depth based upon a 12 line blog about the state of the world.

Furthermore, it wasnt a 'political statement' - it was a thought.

By reading these comments, I'm wondering if everyone is trying to debate, or if you are all spending most of your time only misunderstanding what people say.
That's, especially obvious, when some said that niko compared Bush to Hitler.

PS : I'm not especially defending what niko said but please, read carefully even though it is not easy to debate on a blog.

PPS : jan => I just read your post and... Oh my god I will just ask you if you think it was an intelligent comment. If you do, then I'm sorry about that because some articles about "bad things made by bad men", I can even found some about men that received Nobel Peace Prize.

Please meditate on the fact that it is quite more easy to criticize something than to try to understand it... And you should all know that the easiest path is not always the safest one.

Matthew and others: Afterall this is HIS blog, if you don't like it you can go and ...

And yes, a lot of people misunderstood Niko's post.

And for the ones that say that Bush isn't the only one doing stupid stuff, I can tell you, that at least he is the leader.

Robert Finnie,

Thanks for the remarks. I too hope our administration pays a high price for its stupidity.

The biggest mistake on the war of Iraq was that it was an "end justifies the mean" type of war. And the sad part is we have not been able to establish an end. It has been said that the road to hell is paved in good intentions. If Bush believed we would have been welcomed as liberators and the country would *POOF* become a nice democratic and happy place, that is not true.

The only time things have changed for the better is when a country reacted with such brutality it shocked the country into change. But is anyone willing to deliver the shock that Russia and the U.S. did to Germany in World War II or what we did to Japan in the same time? No one has the stomach for that type of brutality. How do you go up against a culture that hates you, and hates their own people? Where a state like Tehran oppresses its own people. Civil War in Iraq. When a person is willing to kill another because they believe their sect is superior. How do you stop that? Should you try? Or should you let the strongest man rule over the country with an iron fist?

The fact is there was never peace in the world. It is just the fanacticism never boiled over to our soil, or Britain's, or anyone else to this extent until recently. It is hard to have protectionist policies when suicide bombers are taking down your airlines. It is easy to ignore such problems when they are insolated internally in another country.

People are not reasonable, and theocracies are not rational. However, I do believe the United States is changing for the better. I believe the intelligent people of our country are now starting to realize you need to look at the world and the people around you with more viligance. That not everyone shares your beliefs or rationality. That some people want to kill you. And before someone points the finger at the United States for causing all the problems around the world, they need to look around and be careful. For the problems are not new, they have always been there. The same problems are boiling over to your soil as well. And if any country is willing to help you when the extremists plot to blow up your subways, it is the United States. It is the same reason we give money to Israel and arms. It is because if we didn't help them, every Jew in Israel would have been killed by Syria, Egypt, and Jordan.

Even with the mistakes, even with a stupid administration, the United States and Americans are saints compared to the types of people the world are dealing with. That doesn't mean it justifies our actions for war.

But that is what I mean by perspective.

Matthew,

Sure, Perspective. Perspective simply means 'view' or you could say 'opinion'. Opinions, views and perspectives are like arseholes - we all have one (upto and including niko) ;o) so I have to say again, niko dosent lack perspective - perhaps he just dosen't share yours.

Iraqi citizens have perspectives too, and theirs (I imagine) is that they are being occupied by an invading force and they like most people will fight to keep their country sovereign. They would call themselves freedom fighters, others would call them terrorists. Again, this is perspective.

If America was invaded by Canada (I can hear them sharpening their ice skates as I write) or Mexico then I'm sure you would take up arms to defend your country. We all would. They are doing exactly the same.

One thing I must disagree with is your point that if our subways were bombed then America would help. Since before I was born until the end of the 20th Century, Britain was being bombed by 'terrorsists' or 'freedom fighters' (IRA) and the USA would not defend us - In fact there is evidence they were arming them.

The U.S like Britain before it, is in the process of Empire building. Its no secret, the Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld & Co. think tanks have produced documents in the public domain admitting as much. They do not want to spread democracy - such a thing dosent exist!
If the governments and ruling elites were truly virtuous, why havent they put an end to Mugabes reign in Zimbabwe?

They want to get their hands on a rapidly diminishing natural resource and the world knows it.

~Enter Afghanistan and Iraq

There was no 'mistake in intelligence' as they would have you believe - dont let their apologies appease their actions. They have been after that desert for heaven knows how long, they just needed the right time and circumstances to do it.

They (the governments we employ) know that right now they can do whatever they goddam want to and get away with it because the citizens are too apathetic to do anything about it. This is true all over the world.

But thats just my perspective.

ps. Many people will find your last comment 'we are saints compared to the types of people we are dealing with' to be the very thing they find grossly arrogant and ignorant about US policy.

If any nation wishes to remove terrorism from the world they must first stop embarking on it.

i think a lot of people in here are responding as much to the other comments as to niko's original post. I know I was first time around....

Hi Robert. Apathy is a huge problem, you are totally right. One problem with the United States is an administration likes to take sides but pretends they do not.

When I say perspective, I say "put things into perspective". If you are a person to prioritize the injustice in the world, then how do you measure? It is not arrogant to say we are saints compared to people who kill their daughters if they marry "infidels" (this is called honor killing), or kill their own people in civil war, or teach their children that Zionists are evil, or train people to bomb innocent civilians in subways or such.

Compared to that mentality, Germans, Brits, Indians, Japanese, etc.. all saints. In the past, Britain used to be imperialistic. I won't get into Germany's past. But in the present time, overall, I do not believe the people of those countries are like that.

Compared to that, yes. But compared to what is just in the world and how the world should be like beyond 2000, none of us, including Europeans, are saints. American policy is often inconsistent, hippocritical and impractical despite what good intentions may be. When they are good. Often they are not. Often they are self-serving.

Our policy will often fund one country to protect itself and then when they do they give aid to the other country. The problem is our ability to rebuild a country (so called 'nation building' sucks). Somehow after World War II we lost what it took to do so. We are much better at waging war than peace. You could argue that is why there is a United Nations, to help keep the peace. But their sole purpose and they fail miserably, because they have no real authority and no real backbone.

One reason this why blind virtue and good intentions are so misplaced. That is the lesson we should have learned in Vietnam. And I believe everyone knew this, but the president played the politics game to move his vision forward, drumming up the paperwork on WMD and the gamble did not pay off.

If, by some miracle, it did work, and Iraq was a great country and everyone joined together to rebuild and make a democracy or something close to it, of course the world would be happy with us and sigh in relief. But it is arrogant to believe that would have been the outcome. Which is why it is important not to believe in fairy tales.

I think that the fact that the perception of us is based on the results of the war implies that the war itself is not needlessly barbaric. Thus, you can't compare those actions to say the actions of mass killing of your own people, suicide bombing, or massively crushing dissent, because those have no positive outcome. It is just cruel and unjust, period. Thus I think it is important to put things in perspective, that we are not running around with hates in our hearts, but we are running around with an administration that is incompetent in responding to such problems. But, to be fair, I think we need to spend much more time and detail and put the spotlight on the people who are running around with hate in their hearts. That is the true source of injustice, is it not?

I feel bad for the moderate Arabs who do not want to be categorized one way or another, did not want to choose sides. They are almost forced to choose sides because these clash of cultures are polarizing.

You have to admire people like Doctors without Borders who go and help people who are dying, and are on the frontlines not trying to change the world but helping the victims.

There is something the Americans can do. They can vote for an individual who has the intelligence and cleverness necessary to improve the world with leaving the smallest wake possible. That is what Clinton did. Republicans have screwed up big time (in many ways), and come voting time I hope the administration is held accountable. But then again, I don't believe in fairy tales :)

Sorry - Last post was me.

Hi Matthew,

Very interesting read. Thanks

Yes. I agree that it is a far better solution that tackles the source of the injustice than one in which we blame 'whoevers in charge' for the state of the world.
Yes, there is nothing more universal a truth than to say that blowing yourself up will never achieve a good end or the mass murder of your own people will ever have a positive outcome, But - intruigingly, This is clearly what some people are capable of! What can possibly make someone believe that an action so severe can be just?
I could never tell you because I have a different culture to that. I have never lived in a society in which that was possible,
It is inconceivable to me but it obviously makes sense in some cultures... Take the Japanese Empire during the WWII. Kamikaze! I remember when I heard about Kamikazes! as a kid - you think it odd but honourable?! To Die for your country!
But lets face it - It was suicide bombimg.

Somehow, we have the perception during 'this' war that suicide bombing is evil and yet, other cultures have the view that a suicide bombing is a noble way to fight when the odds are stacked against you.

Its a clash of cultures and I fear never the twain shall meet. Perhaps we all originated on other sides of the planet for a damn good reason! Globalisation is impossible, we cant live together peacefully as humans so we should stay out of each others affairs and live and let live.

The essence is this: One mans spreading the word and ideas of what he thinks the world needs is anothers reason to fight to their death that their idea is better. It will always be this way and the more we, humans, bound together as nations try and change another cultures ways and beliefs, the more we will be facing an enemy that uses tactics and beliefs that we dont understand.

I also admire the charities that work hard on easing the symptoms of wars and negelegence without trying to solve the problem. At least we are doing that for each other.

Hey, there is something we can all do as citizens, but im not sure the ballot box is possible anymore. The more I see each government after the last, I more I see that both parties are different sides of the same coin. There really is no alternative vote I dont think anymore. I dont really think the people we vote in have any say to be honest. Somebody pays their wages but I dont think its us through our taxes. Industry, Finance, Media and Government are the same monster with different faces so I think we need to find different ways to change the world.

Hey, I dont believe in fairy tales either except the one where the little guy manages to beat the giant with intuition and ingenuity.

I believe thats possible.

Too much noise here. But remember a few things points..

1) Whenever Bush talks something like 'liberating Iraqi people' you know he is full of lies - especially political science student or anyone who knows how to read a history book ;) No kidding.

2) Sorry to say but double standard is obvious in USA administration especially Bush's. Double standard in simple word means the treatment on others are not the same and this is done deliberately. The most obvious is Israel, and everybody outside USA knows that ;)

Just wanna pop in and say, that I highly enjoy your discussion, Matthew and Robert Finnie. Please continue, it's quite an interesting read :)

What's wrong with comparing Bush to Hitler anyway?

I'm going to do it: Hitler was much worse than Bush is. OMG, I'M SO EVIL! :o

It's not the problem of comparison (finding a major difference) but seeing equivalences in the two situations. Because you will either discredit your arguments by making them much worse than they are (you don't have a mass genocide governed by the US today), or you make the Nazi regime much better than it was. And you might also think twice about respect for the victims of both "situations". If you really want to see some similarities you must take the whole thing into account. And I am absolutely sure that even with Guantanamo, Abu-Ghoreib(spell?), and all other war crimes of the US the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are not at all in a comparable situations as all the ethnic groups murdered during 3rd Reich.
BTW: The only point of my first posting regarding Niko was his nationality which I really did not knew. All the other things were my personal rules of thumb for discussions which I accidentially posted in this blog. It was absolutely not related to anything previously posted in here. I really don't know how this happened, but I also don't know how anyone could see relations to other postings ;-)

Interesting, I wonder how you - living in Austria - have been limited in your personal freedom by the US government? Did they make you wait at the airport? Anyway, I am willing to give up as much of personal freedom as necessary in order to prevent things like 9/11 from happening in the future.

Waving peace banners will not stop the evil in this world. Maybe in addition to asking your grandparents why "they didn't do anything against it", you could have asked your history teacher why most prominently Neville Chamberlain and others "didn't do anything against it" when there was still time.

hi, a very controversial opinion.. here are brushstrokes of many opinions in the world http://www.irancartoon.com/indexday010.htm
mm and thinking about the media.. its curious but one month ago nobody remembered Hiroshima-Nagasaki.. it seems people only remember when aniversaries are multiple of 5, 10.. :-/
IMHO I dont think it come a situation similar to the holocaust but certainly every time USA politic has been fighting terror with terror and then innocent people pay the cost

Niko, i think it was really good to make this statement. In europe the
people have completly diffrent news (magazines) about whats happening in this world then in the US. I think with 9/11 a lot of freedom in the media in the US disappeared.
Now also in europe the same is happening. It was easy to
see in italy. Maybe in 10 years the people cannot say freely something against the goverment.
Maybe faster ...
The people should really start thinking about this ...

I've not read all the posts, but most you have logical opinions IMO. Quite frankly, 'freedom' is superficial, and has been for a long time. Its just that the rot is beginning to surface.

"Anyway, I am willing to give up as much of personal freedom as necessary in order to prevent things like 9/11 from happening in the future."
And the sad thing is, that politicians all around the world - including the Bush administration - have actually convinced people like you that giving up personal freedom WILL prevent things like 9/11...

This has been an interesting conversation, but to Arno's statement about giving up Freedom for Security reminded me of what Benjamin Franklin (one of the founders of the United States) said, "People who wish Security over Freedom, deserver neither."

It does apply well. From my studies of World War II and the Nazi Regime, Hitler disarmed the people stating that his men would protect them from the Communists. He in fact made sure his people could not rebel. Was Security worth it even at the loss of your Right to keep and bear arms. (I'm American. That's the Second Ammendment in our Constitution. :D )

TheGolem: I stated clearly "as much as necessary". I didn't mention who is to decide how much is necessary. That's a subtle but important difference.
Jonathan: Maybe you are interested in another quote of a founding father, namely Thomas Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

"I stated clearly “as much as necessary”. I didn’t mention who is to decide how much is necessary. That’s a subtle but important difference."
Don't matter. If they convinced you that the currency to buy security with is freedom, it doesn't matter that you're only willing to pay 5 cents.
Limiting personal freedom serves the interests of politicians quite well. However, it doesn't change a thing about terrorism.

PS: If Thomas Jefferson would have known what kinds of people would misuse this quote for their personal benefit (that's not directed at you, but at every politician who misused this quote to convince people that another war with another country would be necessary), he would have ripped his tongue out with his bare hands rather than saying that quote.

TheGolem, I do respect your opinion, but I still think that 9/11 could have been prevented by limiting some people's freedom, e.g. Mohammed Atta's freedom of entering the country with an expired visa or his freedom of taking flying classes in Florida, when he had already been under CIA and Mossad investigation for some time.

And about Thomas Jefferson's quote, right, some people might have misused it, but that does not mean it is not true in its essence.