Want good programmers? Then PAY them.
Posted on:May 03 2012
Just read an article in a local Austrian newspaper, telling that local companies are unable to find good developers and programmers. There are currently 22% more open job positions in this area compared to last year, and even back then lots of positions were not be able to be filled. I'm not surprised at all.
The problem IMO is that companies are not willing to pay enough for developers and programmers. In Austria, an entry level programmer with high level university training will usually get offered 2200 Euro gross. I'm not kidding. Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Why on fucking earth should he start as programmer probably even without prospect of a promotion in your company then? Why should he even consider to work as programmer? He would be better off working as team manager, project lead or similar, blabbering in meetings with all the other people, not doing actual work. But at least he would be paid there probably even twice as good.
I've heard the situation is similar in other countries, although I don't think programmers are seen comparable worthless in many other countries :)
The problem IMO is that companies are not willing to pay enough for developers and programmers. In Austria, an entry level programmer with high level university training will usually get offered 2200 Euro gross. I'm not kidding. Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Why on fucking earth should he start as programmer probably even without prospect of a promotion in your company then? Why should he even consider to work as programmer? He would be better off working as team manager, project lead or similar, blabbering in meetings with all the other people, not doing actual work. But at least he would be paid there probably even twice as good.
I've heard the situation is similar in other countries, although I don't think programmers are seen comparable worthless in many other countries :)
Comments:
2200 Euro? As if! In my experience that's a rather high monthly salary for a coder in austria, and if you wan't to see way lower ones, just look at the general IT Staff (Admins and co.), they would be way more than happy with that salary.
Some Programmer
Quote2012-05-03 12:52:00
It's gross, so those 2200 end up being 1513 euro. Maybe you didn't see that?
niko
Quote2012-05-03 12:56:00
In Italy the situation is even worse, as a junior you will probably start at an average 800-900 euros with a 3 months contract
Francesco
Quote2012-05-03 13:00:00
@niko I know that it's gross, and the sad fact is that I know enough programmers that get around 1500 monthly gross.
Some Programmer
Quote2012-05-03 13:02:00
The title is great, and it is exactly what most of programmers thinks, it is a very hard mental job, and if i had a chance to switch to physical job for half the salary i would, not because i hate programming, but no one can be a programmer more that 5 years.
Reality
Quote2012-05-03 13:04:00
woha :)
niko
Quote2012-05-03 13:05:00
Unfortunately, the situation is the same in France, even for engineers. If you're lucky, you can expect after 10 years of experience to earn 75% of what a junior position in Silicon Valley would get you.
DrMonkey
Quote2012-05-03 13:05:00
Agree with this article. It is the same in Belgium. After a few years it is more interesting to become a manager than continuing programming. Your salary doesn't raise anymore after 30 year except if you get a manager position. I get in my pocket 1500eur every month and I have 5+ years experience in J2EE. I have a CV as long as my arm.
Nicolas
Quote2012-05-03 13:07:00
Here in Italy, several GOOD developers are paid 1200€-1500€ net.
Daniele
Quote2012-05-03 13:09:00
As far as I know the austrian collective contract for programmers is 1800€ even if you´ve studied it´s hard getting more without 10 years of work experience.
Jakob
Quote2012-05-03 13:11:00
I totally agree. I've always wondered why team leaders, etc... get salaries that are so much higher in comparison to developers. In my point of view, this is due to the old mentality that the "boss" should be rewarded. It's true that management roles imply responsibility and that responsibility must be rewarded... however, assuming your developers are disposable factory workers will just limit the quality of your team and consequently the quality of your work.
Pedro
Quote2012-05-03 13:17:00
Forget Europe. In India companies some times don't even pay for first 3 months, in which entry-level programmers are kept in so called "training period" in which they are tailored to code in their way. Only then they start getting "some" pay.
Gautam
Quote2012-05-03 13:18:00
In russia we have for example senior python developer salary is around $2700 - $4000+ and around $1400 - $2000 for junior devs. And it's okay.
Some companies try to find devs with lover price - like $2000 for seniors and devs who is really accept it - their own problems. Depends on level of company.
Some companies try to find devs with lover price - like $2000 for seniors and devs who is really accept it - their own problems. Depends on level of company.
MechanisM
Quote2012-05-03 13:19:00
Hello, where do you all live people? Just move over to Berlin and be done with those boring companies paying 2,200 euros monthly salaries :)
Artas Bartas
Quote2012-05-03 13:20:00
Luxembourg is quite nice.
Junior Developer (almost 2 years XP in C, Perl, Shell scripting) and 3k1 net.
Junior Developer (almost 2 years XP in C, Perl, Shell scripting) and 3k1 net.
Gilles
Quote2012-05-03 13:20:00
A comment I came to know recently is:
You dont get any where, and for more money, sitting in the same seat.
You dont get any where, and for more money, sitting in the same seat.
Brent
Quote2012-05-03 13:21:00
For me it is not so much that I think that developers are underpaid. I think in many countries there are many other jobs that are more demanding and get paid even less.
But what is annoying is the fact that often people that go to meetings, talk, make presentations and send emails get paid much more than developers who actually do the work (and most probably have to do all of the above as well).
But what is annoying is the fact that often people that go to meetings, talk, make presentations and send emails get paid much more than developers who actually do the work (and most probably have to do all of the above as well).
Aspra
Quote2012-05-03 13:22:00
Some copmanies tries to find devs for $1000 - $1500 and it can work out. why not? if its depends on level of skill or smth like that.
MechanisM
Quote2012-05-03 13:22:00
well i dont know... i get 3.5k EUR gross(in less developed country than Austria) and think its low, now i read that they pay 2.2k in austria? whoa.... something went very wrong there....
martin
Quote2012-05-03 13:28:00
I guess programming isn't considered a highly valuable ressource. In my opinion Programmers don't complain about their salary, they are just happy to work on something they love. Usually designers and Marketeers are more extrovert than the normal programmer. Communicating and defending their goals for the job position is easier for them.
So basicly it is our own fault if we don't demand a fitting salary. If every Developer on this Planet suddenly decided to take 1k more per month or stop working ... everything would stand still...
So basicly it is our own fault if we don't demand a fitting salary. If every Developer on this Planet suddenly decided to take 1k more per month or stop working ... everything would stand still...
Michael
Quote2012-05-03 13:29:00
I'm an austrian developer too. 12 years experience. 3600 Euros.
Which nets to less than 2200 Euros a month. Which is around 12 bucks an hour. Our indian contractors make more than that.
Which nets to less than 2200 Euros a month. Which is around 12 bucks an hour. Our indian contractors make more than that.
dude
Quote2012-05-03 13:32:00
I am no longer in the IT business. I started many decades ago in a previous millenium, long before you were born. Yes, I started programming in 1970. At that time, programmers were well paid and respected. A sharp programmer, with good communication skills could get promoted to a Systems Analyst and deal with end/users and clients. That person could then become a project manager and then a department manager. Somewhere along the line, starting in the mid 1980s, "business analysts" slowly crawled out from under rocks. They were non-technical clerks usually from the end user communities. They had their job titles changed because of their association with IT people. Over the years these people have put on airs and totally undermined technical people. They put down programmers by referring to them as "coders". They claim to write "specs" which is truly insulting. They now become the team lead which is disgusting. Remember they are essentially clersks. They claim to manage and mentor technical people which is preposterous when you think about it.
I now live in Galt's Gultch. I refuse to think for them. I am delighted that smart young people now can develop an app or something and become rich and not share a nickle with the nebulous parasites known as business analysts.
I now live in Galt's Gultch. I refuse to think for them. I am delighted that smart young people now can develop an app or something and become rich and not share a nickle with the nebulous parasites known as business analysts.
Peggy
Quote2012-05-03 13:32:00
It's interesting, at Amazon (US) senior SDEs are paid more than their team leaders. The goal is that you want good SDEs to keep developing, and good managers to manage. Having SDEs manage just for the money is horrible for everyone involved.
Hmm
Quote2012-05-03 13:34:00
I'm a developer, but I know nothing about the Austrian job market, I've only worked in Sydney and Berlin. In Sydney I was responsible for interviewing and hiring candidates. The issue that companies are complaining about in these cities is not the ability to find programmers, or entry level programmers, the issue was finding good programmers with experience. We would receive thousands of job applications a year. We put them through a tough interview process, including intensive interviews with developers, and pair programming style coding tests. We wouldn't hire more than a handful, not because we didn't have the positions, but because they weren't good enough. Anyone that was good enough we would hire. And we paid well above market (a senior developer at my company in Sydney would get paid easily 6 figures), yet, we still couldn't hire as many people as we wanted. Maybe entry level developers aren't paid enough, but the issue that companies are complaining about in Sydney at least is caused by the fact that out of the thousands of developers they interview, only a very small percentage are good.
James Roper
Quote2012-05-03 13:34:00
Wow. 10 years ago I started on a lot more than that in Germany near Austria.
But as you started off saying its a free market and people have other options. I expect however that these jobs and the people to accept them are NOT the same people that can start off on their own with a startup or start off in a management position.
Low level dev jobs are probably only worth that, especially outside of the big cities, and many of those starting their careers are probably only worth that too (many might even be worth less), so I think the market is working.
It's not like that salary is representative of what engaged developers can expect, but a lot of work doesn't require much engagement.
Plenty of interesting, well paying opportunities, for those that can handle them.
But as you started off saying its a free market and people have other options. I expect however that these jobs and the people to accept them are NOT the same people that can start off on their own with a startup or start off in a management position.
Low level dev jobs are probably only worth that, especially outside of the big cities, and many of those starting their careers are probably only worth that too (many might even be worth less), so I think the market is working.
It's not like that salary is representative of what engaged developers can expect, but a lot of work doesn't require much engagement.
Plenty of interesting, well paying opportunities, for those that can handle them.
Kurt Häusle
Quote2012-05-03 13:35:00
And here I was thinking that my EUR4200 in Germany was low!
Daniel
Quote2012-05-03 13:40:00
I think it's a bit pessimistic, but not by much.
I live in Vienna and starting salaries are a bit higher than that in my experience (2.2-2.4k eur per month), and after a few years you can get to around 3k/month (depending on the industry, I was earning 2.7k/month in the games industry).
However I'm not sure it's that easy to make more than that on your own without a job in 1 year. Possible but not nearly guaranteed.
I live in Vienna and starting salaries are a bit higher than that in my experience (2.2-2.4k eur per month), and after a few years you can get to around 3k/month (depending on the industry, I was earning 2.7k/month in the games industry).
However I'm not sure it's that easy to make more than that on your own without a job in 1 year. Possible but not nearly guaranteed.
ed
Quote2012-05-03 13:45:00
Programmer is the new janitor. Don't be a programmer. Be what ever else and know programming. There is no money and career to be made in programming any more. Now you have to know some other specialized knowledge and leverage programming to be even better at that other expertize.
Days when programmers could do something on their own are long gone.
Days when programmers could do something on their own are long gone.
Mario
Quote2012-05-03 13:49:00
You guys need to relocate, In Aberdeen a programmer with .Net experience will earn £30k+ (around e35k) per annum. Go here:
http://www.rightpeople.uk.net/site/vacancy.asp?theID=896&filterhttp2=vacancyFiltered2.asp?thecat=2
http://www.rightpeople.uk.net/site/vacancy.asp?theID=896&filterhttp2=vacancyFiltered2.asp?thecat=2
Shaun
Quote2012-05-03 13:50:00
Huh, strange. I'm a CS student from Vienna (first year) and get 20 euro or more per hour - about 3.2k per month if I decide to work full time. I'd feel insulted if anybody seriously offered me 2k or less - I can earn more than that by guiding tourists ...
Mononofu
Quote2012-05-03 13:53:00
Apples and oranges. The author conflates entry level programmers with "highly specialized people with actual skills". They are quite different. Most senior level programmers got their jobs via seniority and aren't really qualified for their position. That is one reason IT is a bad career choice, you work with imbeciles.
Greg
Quote2012-05-03 14:10:00
Plenty of interesting, well paying opportunities, for those that can handle them.
That is very true. Maybe not in Austria, but you can (not so hardly) find around 40k EUR/year (after taxes) salaries in Germany, the Netherlands, UK, Switzerland, etc.
But you should also take into account taxes, cost of living (not sure about Austria, but I suppose its lower than Paris/London) and possible mandatory extras/bonuses like 13rd/14th salary.
cheers
That is very true. Maybe not in Austria, but you can (not so hardly) find around 40k EUR/year (after taxes) salaries in Germany, the Netherlands, UK, Switzerland, etc.
But you should also take into account taxes, cost of living (not sure about Austria, but I suppose its lower than Paris/London) and possible mandatory extras/bonuses like 13rd/14th salary.
cheers
barneyg
Quote2012-05-03 14:16:00
Come to the U.S. my friends. You probably got a better mathematics education in the country you came from and can get paid well- especially if you dont mind which city you live in or what product you are working on.
J. Tal
Quote2012-05-03 14:16:00
it is important to consider the requirements of the job... most small businesses don't need anything crazy, basic crud, some design, maybe ecommerce.. obviously you can do this to different degrees. From a business perspective a website in itself most of the time needs to be developed 1 time and then after that it becomes a small maintenance issue... if you want money start your own profit generating website or go work for google
blaaaack
Quote2012-05-03 14:29:00
hence thou shalt lance free !! :D
sohaib
Quote2012-05-03 14:47:00
here in Uruguay a junior programer(just finishing his/her studies) get paid between 10000 and 20000 pesos... about 500-1000 dollars, but the life cost is lower than in europe
2200 euros in Uruguay would be an amazing salary.
2200 euros in Uruguay would be an amazing salary.
leo
Quote2012-05-03 14:54:00
I get paid £18k/year, which comes out at about £1100/month. I really need a better job ...
Lucian
Quote2012-05-03 15:00:00
Poland, experienced developer, 2000 euro NET. Up to 4000 if you're willing to work on contracts. Between 500 and 1000 if you're not experienced.
mrx
Quote2012-05-03 15:07:00
The notion is correct but me as programmer i hate meeting email babble and the all the bull shiz and am much happier sitting in front of a screen coding. That being said developers in the US get paid significantly more then 2200 euros
Joe
Quote2012-05-03 15:16:00
In Holland it is the same.
Cesar
Quote2012-05-03 15:21:00
developers in africa get paid more, sheesh
robininafrica
Quote2012-05-03 15:23:00
Move to Berlin. Programmers in high demand, salaries are good. Berlin is a great place to live with low cost of living comparable to other large cities. While I was living and working there, I hired junior developers at rates above €4k/month gross, seniors got paid far more. This is because it is competitive area and we all want good guys.
Berliner
Quote2012-05-03 15:27:00
In South Italy professionist graduated, certificated, with ten yeas of experience as Java programmer, earn net 1500 euros. I'm graduated and work from 2 years and earn net 1200 euros. I prefer be waiter, i'm moving away from Italy to start as waiter, it's better!
Tony
Quote2012-05-03 15:29:00
Hi, I live in BiH and I'm freelancing and earning aroung 3000 USD monthly, If someone offers me 2500€ to work in Austria I would say are you serious, and just to give you little info about Bosnia
1 Beer = 1€
1 Bread = 0.4€
1 Pack of Expensive cigarets 1.6€
1l of Milk 0.5€
And my opinion that salary in Austria is low for software developer, and you can't compare sys admins and developers, two different positions.
1 Beer = 1€
1 Bread = 0.4€
1 Pack of Expensive cigarets 1.6€
1l of Milk 0.5€
And my opinion that salary in Austria is low for software developer, and you can't compare sys admins and developers, two different positions.
TriLLi
Quote2012-05-03 15:31:00
In Spain is the same. At entry level you get payed 1000 euros if you are lucky. In big cities it's a little bit better, but still...
I don't understand the reason, because even for government grants it's taken into consideration that engineerings are more difficult, so you can get a grant with less average marks. And still we get pay less than a person who studied "business administration" (which is far easier and less specialized).
I think the problem is that we like our job and we accept to do it for less money. We should stop this. We should coordinate.
I don't understand the reason, because even for government grants it's taken into consideration that engineerings are more difficult, so you can get a grant with less average marks. And still we get pay less than a person who studied "business administration" (which is far easier and less specialized).
I think the problem is that we like our job and we accept to do it for less money. We should stop this. We should coordinate.
Sergio
Quote2012-05-03 15:33:00
Leave Austria. Come to Australia.
Its basically the same, except decent entry level here is about 50,000 euro.
Its basically the same, except decent entry level here is about 50,000 euro.
Adrian
Quote2012-05-03 15:35:00
Fascinating reading this and browsing through the comments.
The situation is definitely different in the United States. I believe that good developers are not easy to find anywhere in the world. There's a very big difference between a good developer and someone who can produce some code. There are a lot of people who can produce code. Finding someone who's passionate about their work and enjoys the field of programming and technology is not an easy thing to do.
Good developers demand around $80-100K (€61-76K) as long as you are in a place with an economy that supports that kind of pay.
On the other hand, a person who can simply produce code will probably be able to get closer to $40-60K (€30-45K).
Rising demands for good developers means that there are exceptions. There are lots of people who simply produce code that get paid like they are a developer.
Programming is a very interesting profession.
The situation is definitely different in the United States. I believe that good developers are not easy to find anywhere in the world. There's a very big difference between a good developer and someone who can produce some code. There are a lot of people who can produce code. Finding someone who's passionate about their work and enjoys the field of programming and technology is not an easy thing to do.
Good developers demand around $80-100K (€61-76K) as long as you are in a place with an economy that supports that kind of pay.
On the other hand, a person who can simply produce code will probably be able to get closer to $40-60K (€30-45K).
Rising demands for good developers means that there are exceptions. There are lots of people who simply produce code that get paid like they are a developer.
Programming is a very interesting profession.
randomdrake.com
Quote2012-05-03 15:44:00
The recommended starting payment for a CS master degree in Norway in the private sector is about 63K€ yearly for students starting in August. And there are five weeks vacation in there.
SpoiledNorwegian
Quote2012-05-03 15:47:00
I wouldn't compare European salaries with US so quickly.
I have a cautionary tale to tell: when in 1990 the USSR collapsed, many Russian physicists decided to move abroad, some to western Europe, some to the USA. At first the European ones were complaining about their lower salaries, but once they started having kids and needing more medical care, they realized that they were actually much better off than their American counterparts.
The lesson here is: you might even make much less, but in Europe there are much much better public schools which are free, hospitals are (mostly) free and in general Universities are either free or at least one order of magnitude less expensive than in the US. Should I go on? Most contracts in the US do not have unlimited sick leave, whereas in Europe we get that and 20 days of holiday; the US are one of the four countries in the world with no national law on maternity leave (who are the other three is left as an exercise to the reader…).
But I agree with the general point that salaries of developers should not be so low compared to managerial positions.
I have a cautionary tale to tell: when in 1990 the USSR collapsed, many Russian physicists decided to move abroad, some to western Europe, some to the USA. At first the European ones were complaining about their lower salaries, but once they started having kids and needing more medical care, they realized that they were actually much better off than their American counterparts.
The lesson here is: you might even make much less, but in Europe there are much much better public schools which are free, hospitals are (mostly) free and in general Universities are either free or at least one order of magnitude less expensive than in the US. Should I go on? Most contracts in the US do not have unlimited sick leave, whereas in Europe we get that and 20 days of holiday; the US are one of the four countries in the world with no national law on maternity leave (who are the other three is left as an exercise to the reader…).
But I agree with the general point that salaries of developers should not be so low compared to managerial positions.
Carlo
Quote2012-05-03 15:50:00
I have been working in Russia as a Java developer and get 500 euros a month :)
Toolen
Quote2012-05-03 15:56:00
That's quite a lot by Indian standards. I started working at US $3500 / year in India.
unpaidProgrammer
Quote2012-05-03 16:07:00
In Bolivia - South America a programer get paid between 700 and 1500 dollars. What about Brazil ? Im interested on moving there
Daniel
Quote2012-05-03 16:13:00
Developer (iOS/web) in Asia/Hong Kong. USD $4800/month.
dev
Quote2012-05-03 16:23:00
Wow, is is a bit surprising how low salaries are in some European countries. You would think that they would be fairly comperable to the United States.
I live in Dallas and work for a major corporation as a Software Engineer and I make just over $5500/month gross. You can make substantially more in Silicon Valley, although the cost of living is astronomical out there.
I would just work for myself if the best offers I got were $3000/month.
I live in Dallas and work for a major corporation as a Software Engineer and I make just over $5500/month gross. You can make substantially more in Silicon Valley, although the cost of living is astronomical out there.
I would just work for myself if the best offers I got were $3000/month.
Ugly American
Quote2012-05-03 16:25:00
I have some 8 years of experience and my last job in Romania paid 500€ / month.
I mostly do frontend work.
I mostly do frontend work.
Horia Dragomir
Quote2012-05-03 16:34:00
Those with the interest should really migrate your programming skills to the security realm, I've got only a few years experience in security analysis and engineering and make 9000US month. A few SANS crest and apply with banks/gov/mega corps. Job offers all day.
Secdude
Quote2012-05-03 16:37:00
Answering the guy from Bolivia: Brazil is a very diverse country and so are IT professionals salaries. If you are in a major city (like São Paulo) and working in the financial sector, the salaries are somenthing like $1000-1500 for juniors and up to $4000-5000 for seniors, but you have to consider its one of the most expensive cities to live in the World. In smaller cities things are a lot worse. But the grand average is somenthing around $2000
Fernando
Quote2012-05-03 16:38:00
I think that straight out of university most young programmers don't have a clue about creating valuable software.
Only after working in a company for at least 2 years you start being actually useful to the company.
At the beginning I honestly think the company is doing you a favor by employing you, training in you, teaching what the business world is about and paying you too.
I was paid 1,500 EUR in 2000. By 2005 I was making 160,000 EUR.
So, be humble at the beginning and the rewards will come.
Only after working in a company for at least 2 years you start being actually useful to the company.
At the beginning I honestly think the company is doing you a favor by employing you, training in you, teaching what the business world is about and paying you too.
I was paid 1,500 EUR in 2000. By 2005 I was making 160,000 EUR.
So, be humble at the beginning and the rewards will come.
Frank Ongle
Quote2012-05-03 16:39:00
that's not just the case in Australia, its almost the case everywhere I hear..... they want us to bargain, wtf!!! x(
AbhishekKr
Quote2012-05-03 17:18:00
Then go work in a country where they pay well! Simples! If you are a top programmer you can get a job ANYwhere!
John
Quote2012-05-03 17:50:00
In Bosnia the salary for developer is 700 EUR, you can't go anywhere with it, and as Artas Bartas said if i had a chance to move to Berlin i will take it.
Reality
Quote2012-05-03 18:08:00
whoah! wait till you hear here in the Philippines. four years ago i started working at $285 gross per month.
however in the recent months a lot of companies are giving more because it's getting hard to acquire talents. i am positive that I.T here in my country will be much better in the coming months/years
however in the recent months a lot of companies are giving more because it's getting hard to acquire talents. i am positive that I.T here in my country will be much better in the coming months/years
almar.io
Quote2012-05-03 18:10:00
In Germany the typical salary is 40K/year which makes it 2000/month after taxes. Considering living expenses in large cities like Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt closing on 1500/month, you end up with some ridiculous 500-800 leftover, which is nothing for expensive Europe. I worked for a few years in Germany then gave up and returned to my homeland (Russia) as I was fed up playing cheap workforce. Europe urgently needs software developers? Give me a break.
RussianGuy
Quote2012-05-03 18:11:00
It's all about perspective, demand, and skill. I live in Norway. I've programmed for about 7 yrs, my starting salary was around 4K EUR and today 9. I have no formal education.
I've turned down at least five concrete job offers from the US since 2010. One of them was as a local rep type position in Oslo, but what they did not seem to understand is that the cost of living is even higher than 'astronomical' over here.
I've turned down at least five concrete job offers from the US since 2010. One of them was as a local rep type position in Oslo, but what they did not seem to understand is that the cost of living is even higher than 'astronomical' over here.
jaykay
Quote2012-05-03 18:22:00
In Moscow salaries range in 2000-3000 Euros net, sometimes up to 4000. Since most of the people live in property apartments (Soviet government graciously gave out apartments to young families) and they don't have to pay rent, they put all of the earned money in their pocket. 3000 Euros of pure income per month is not that bad.
RussianGuy
Quote2012-05-03 18:23:00
Here in Charlotte, North Carolina -- a large city in the southeastern US -- I mostly work as a contractor. I am a senior ASP.Net web developer with strong SQL Server skills, but my skills are not unique. The current hourly rate (before any taxes or benefits) is in the range of $60-65 per hour, or around $125,000 per year. Salaried positions in large companies pay over $100,000, and smaller businesses try to get you down to $75,000 -- all with medical insurance and possibly some retirement benefits, maybe a bonus.
Daphne
Quote2012-05-03 18:23:00
2200 ain't low. its average. the low end is around 900-1000E.
The junior salary in the sv isn't much higher. $1 != 1E damn far from it. And living in sv is relatively expensive.
4000E/mo is high. higher than that is actually kinda rich.
That's all before taxes, mind you!
if you can do that by writing your own software then don't complain, just write your own software (then you'll realize that it doesn't actually work out?)
For the record I worked in different EU countries AND in the sv.
In the sv if you wanna make real money guess f. what? You gotta make your company and be the CEO OR get shares before the company goes big.
Guess what again? 98% or so of the companies fail, though luck. It isn't actually that easy. At all!
The junior salary in the sv isn't much higher. $1 != 1E damn far from it. And living in sv is relatively expensive.
4000E/mo is high. higher than that is actually kinda rich.
That's all before taxes, mind you!
if you can do that by writing your own software then don't complain, just write your own software (then you'll realize that it doesn't actually work out?)
For the record I worked in different EU countries AND in the sv.
In the sv if you wanna make real money guess f. what? You gotta make your company and be the CEO OR get shares before the company goes big.
Guess what again? 98% or so of the companies fail, though luck. It isn't actually that easy. At all!
buh
Quote2012-05-03 18:24:00
I create engineering programs from scratch almost every time alone and i'm paid almost like said in the post. It's around 10 years i work like that and i was liking it only because projects where always different and there was space and time to improve your coding. The software was almost database management + some calculations, not much else involved. I am unable to learn much from others but it was bearable.
In the last years however they assigned me more difficult and ambitious projects (seeing i'm not stupid, eh eh) with little more raise in salary. They know i like computer graphics coding and they thought to use this "feature" of mine. I was not so skilled to say i can produce a commercial software so i accepted anyway, to learn. Also they have seen i am able to design the software myself so i had to study what to do, put ideas, experiment technologies to use, prepare a timetable ALL alone with not people asking me anything (after years i understood it was more because they think i work honestly without slacking BUT also that they are not interested in the details of the products they produce and sell).
New things to do involved 3D rendering, 2D rendering and so on so i asked people to help me but they have managed only to use other developers in the office just when they have some free time between other tasks of other projects. Obviously they think i'm me who needs to tell them every day what to do, teach them things they don't know and so on.
Lately the great idea to speed up things: hiring a manager to check developers paid x3 times our salary. Now i need to tell him every week what i've done and how much i've to work again to finish everything (he isn't interested and capable of understanding the technical things involved). His main task is to draw gantt charts and sum hours to calculate how much i cost them.
This lasts for around an year and i'm quite depressed for that. So i decided to ask them:
1) to raise my salary because i have to work on more roles (analyst, software architect, programmer in every task, now just a part of the whole big software, team leader, coordinator). OR
2) make me work on just one topic (computer graphics because i know it and not one else) OR
3) give me less pressure and shut up
Naturally the answer was "we have to think if we have money for the raise, we cannot have so much people/money to work on it, we need to publish it for the end of the year".
So i decided to quit as soon as i've finished this (i accepted the work, i'll finish it) and start something myself with more joy and possibly more money in return for my efforts.
In the last years however they assigned me more difficult and ambitious projects (seeing i'm not stupid, eh eh) with little more raise in salary. They know i like computer graphics coding and they thought to use this "feature" of mine. I was not so skilled to say i can produce a commercial software so i accepted anyway, to learn. Also they have seen i am able to design the software myself so i had to study what to do, put ideas, experiment technologies to use, prepare a timetable ALL alone with not people asking me anything (after years i understood it was more because they think i work honestly without slacking BUT also that they are not interested in the details of the products they produce and sell).
New things to do involved 3D rendering, 2D rendering and so on so i asked people to help me but they have managed only to use other developers in the office just when they have some free time between other tasks of other projects. Obviously they think i'm me who needs to tell them every day what to do, teach them things they don't know and so on.
Lately the great idea to speed up things: hiring a manager to check developers paid x3 times our salary. Now i need to tell him every week what i've done and how much i've to work again to finish everything (he isn't interested and capable of understanding the technical things involved). His main task is to draw gantt charts and sum hours to calculate how much i cost them.
This lasts for around an year and i'm quite depressed for that. So i decided to ask them:
1) to raise my salary because i have to work on more roles (analyst, software architect, programmer in every task, now just a part of the whole big software, team leader, coordinator). OR
2) make me work on just one topic (computer graphics because i know it and not one else) OR
3) give me less pressure and shut up
Naturally the answer was "we have to think if we have money for the raise, we cannot have so much people/money to work on it, we need to publish it for the end of the year".
So i decided to quit as soon as i've finished this (i accepted the work, i'll finish it) and start something myself with more joy and possibly more money in return for my efforts.
Gian
Quote2012-05-03 18:24:00
Anyway I think most of the great programmers abandon employed work these days and go launch their startups. "Market" has done quite well in repelling those few who are good at their chosen profession.
RussianGuy
Quote2012-05-03 18:25:00
Hmm, where I am from,Romania, a high salary for a programmer is around 400euros ...
S.
Quote2012-05-03 18:29:00
the problem is India and arabic countries are pumping out programmers as fast as they can, so wages are nothing.
Story: I'm in the US and went to school for computer science. When I saw all the jobs go overseas I decided to leave school, hire someone overseas and used a few hundred dollars to start a popular ecommerce website. Now I make well into six-figures with no degree, and send about $1,000 USD a year to a programmer in Pakistan to keep the website updated with new code.
They say they want programmers but then they don't want to pay them and when no one wants to work for free they outsource because they do work for (almost) free.
Story: I'm in the US and went to school for computer science. When I saw all the jobs go overseas I decided to leave school, hire someone overseas and used a few hundred dollars to start a popular ecommerce website. Now I make well into six-figures with no degree, and send about $1,000 USD a year to a programmer in Pakistan to keep the website updated with new code.
They say they want programmers but then they don't want to pay them and when no one wants to work for free they outsource because they do work for (almost) free.
US entrepreneur
Quote2012-05-03 18:36:00
In the US at a reputable company/startup you'll start at 70k/yr in the East Coast. So after taxes you are looking at about $4,000 a month.
Stelios
Quote2012-05-03 18:55:00
You definitely need to visit Latvia. Here you will get 300-400 LVL as beginner (600-800 USD), and up to 1000-1200 LVL (2000- 2400 USD) as a professional - with work until night and without weekends as a part of a process (as you're getting so high salary!)
And yes, this will be "black" salary in most cases, paid with cash under desk - i.e. no social benefits if you'll loose your job.
And our companies also complain a lot that they can't find good developers.
And yes, this will be "black" salary in most cases, paid with cash under desk - i.e. no social benefits if you'll loose your job.
And our companies also complain a lot that they can't find good developers.
G. H.
Quote2012-05-03 19:27:00
Software: Good, Fast and Cheap. Pick two.
James Bell
Quote2012-05-03 20:49:00
In Romania, as a backend developer(C#/Java) I was payed aprox 1500 Euros (~7 years experience). But I think is a special case. The most experienced developers I know, were payed between 900-1200. Only after 10 years of experience you might get the chance of having more then 1500 euros.
Sebastian
Quote2012-05-03 20:58:00
Another thing about Romania: high salaries are being payed only in these 3 cities: Cluj, Timisoara, Bucuresti.
Sebastian
Quote2012-05-03 21:00:00
Well now in malaysia, and some asian parts, the highest a programmer is paid is around MYR3000 so thats around 750EUR?
somechinesedude
Quote2012-05-03 21:01:00
Record comment rate.
Also, 500 EUR/month here, Brazil.
Also, 500 EUR/month here, Brazil.
Nostaw
Quote2012-05-03 21:16:00
Please note, that in Austria there are 14 month of salary, so you actually need to take that into account if you compare with other countries like Germany.
vrankz
Quote2012-05-03 21:40:00
Answering the guy from Bolivia (and São Paulo): I live in Porto Alegre (southern brazil), working at Terra Networks (terra.com.br) as a senior developer: R$5500 (~US$2800)/month. This is a very nice city to live, a little expensive, but I have a good house, a nice car, lot of fun. All while being the only income to a family of 3 (married with 3yo child).
Porto Alegre is probably the second/third largest IT market in South America. We have Terra (also in Sao Paulo and almost all South American countries + Miami), HP and Dell as major companies, and a lot of other smaller third-parties.
Porto Alegre is probably the second/third largest IT market in South America. We have Terra (also in Sao Paulo and almost all South American countries + Miami), HP and Dell as major companies, and a lot of other smaller third-parties.
Mateus
Quote2012-05-03 21:47:00
hey guys, nice reading your conebts, am in kenya and i get paid around $500 gross per month as a developer. Obvious its not the same every where in Kenya as its infact the starting salary for entry level developer for most of startsup i know. I have the passionate for my job, and i dont care what am being paid. I am an android developer and i can make extra far much more on my own apps, so i have an advice for those developers being motivated by money, if you are good you can start your own business.
alex
Quote2012-05-03 21:50:00
In India 3 type of fresher :-
i) if you are from good college (top 10 %). your 1st IT job will pay you around $ 2000 easily.
ii) From 2-tier college (30%). you will get around $ 1000
iii) Rest get job in BPO or Call center (40 %). Salary starting at $400 .
Remaining 20 % don't get a JOB.
Now for experienced:
5-8 Year experience in Programming/Management or QA get you around $ 3500 easily !!!
i) if you are from good college (top 10 %). your 1st IT job will pay you around $ 2000 easily.
ii) From 2-tier college (30%). you will get around $ 1000
iii) Rest get job in BPO or Call center (40 %). Salary starting at $400 .
Remaining 20 % don't get a JOB.
Now for experienced:
5-8 Year experience in Programming/Management or QA get you around $ 3500 easily !!!
ab kaka
Quote2012-05-03 21:55:00
In Brazil i can tell you that a entry level programmer with high level university get less than this. it's the big problem of softwares with bad quality, is like every profissional, if you want a service to be well done you have to pay more for a qualified professional and if you pay less, you receive less. it's not different in software development field.
Tiago Mesquita d
Quote2012-05-03 22:44:00
In israel it's 1000$
Alexander
Quote2012-05-03 23:16:00
In St. Louis, MO, USA- $US 45-75 /hour as Contractor with benefits.
You are responsible for keeping your skills fresh. Here its Java, Spring, Hibetnate, jQuery, Web. Full time average around 100K US per year with 5-10 years experience. Sounds like no one wants to pay Eurozone taxes. Self employeed 80+/ hour
You are responsible for keeping your skills fresh. Here its Java, Spring, Hibetnate, jQuery, Web. Full time average around 100K US per year with 5-10 years experience. Sounds like no one wants to pay Eurozone taxes. Self employeed 80+/ hour
Independent
Quote2012-05-03 23:23:00
Just across the border from Austria, in Slovakia, you are lucky to get 1000€ gross entry level sallary. That is for university-trained people.
Hulu
Quote2012-05-03 23:30:00
Mateus, could you please post you're mail? I would like to ask you some questions about IT field on Brazil.
Daniel
Quote2012-05-03 23:50:00
Spain, 22 years of experience, C, C++, Java and C# programmer, 2160€/month
JCarles
Quote2012-05-03 23:52:00
In the US, outside Washington, D.C., I pay mid level developers with 8-12 years of experience around $100,000. We are a little below market for this area.
JakeC
Quote2012-05-03 23:53:00
In Latvia with xp 4 years and up avg salary/month from $1000 to $2000 depending on language. With salary from $1000 to $2000 programmer earns more than ~90% of country's population. With salary over $2000 programmer earns more than ~98% of country's population. On global view quite low, but on local these are quite high. How are your salaries looking on local salary context ?
Martins
Quote2012-05-04 00:28:00
I'm a senior developer with 10 years experience (all rounder - front & backend) at a small web agency in Sydney and make about AU$9,500 gross (€7,500) / month. Our cost of living is probably a bit higher though! (eg. average rent on a 1 bedroom apartment close to the city is about AU$400-$500 a _week_)
Aus Dev
Quote2012-05-04 00:42:00
latvia seems kind of similar to slovakia, maybe some percents lower, but not that much, just swap dollars for euros. i've been lucky, but not everybody can say that
RastaFeri
Quote2012-05-04 01:04:00
Here in Australia I work in systems automation designing hardware/software solutions to run things like water treatment plants, oil/gas refineries and manufacturing plants. I'm coming up on 10 years experience and my gross salary is about AUS$12,000. However my work is counted as a Engineering Discipline (my degrees are all in Electrical/Mechanical/Computer Engineering) even though 90% of it is programming.
Masdus
Quote2012-05-04 01:38:00
The US has a talent gap because we are destroying our educational system.
Come to San Francisco and earn US$10k gross
Come to San Francisco and earn US$10k gross
SanFranGeek
Quote2012-05-04 04:17:00
In Pakistan
A fresh grad starts with 300 Euro per month.
6+ years of experience can get up to 900 Euro per month.
10+ years of experience can get up to 1800 Euro.
A fresh grad starts with 300 Euro per month.
6+ years of experience can get up to 900 Euro per month.
10+ years of experience can get up to 1800 Euro.
Hasan
Quote2012-05-04 04:36:00
It's all relative. In San francisco, I make $13,000 per month which includes my bonus, but 1 bedroom apartments average $4,000 a month, tax is around 45%, and decent 3 bedroom houses near good schools with a commute shorter than 20 minutes cost $3,000,000. After tax and rent I have about $2,000 left, which barely covers the rest of my expenses. And I have no idea how I'll ever be able to afford a house being an employee.
Anon
Quote2012-05-04 05:32:00
from my country some lucky programmers gets an equivalent of 270Euro/month, some lucky lucky lucky programmer like me gets 540Euro/month... some very luck programmer get something higher.
no it's not the cost of living thing -- because most programmers here have difficulty buying their own house.
no it's not the cost of living thing -- because most programmers here have difficulty buying their own house.
adrian
Quote2012-05-04 05:45:00
Can somebody parse each of the posts
- search each post for 3 digit or greater number and assume it is monthhly salary
- search each post for any string that matches some universal set of cities, states, countries
- then make a chart and show us what everyone reports as monthly programmer salaries around the world
You are all programmers right? ; ) should be a piece of cake ...
- search each post for 3 digit or greater number and assume it is monthhly salary
- search each post for any string that matches some universal set of cities, states, countries
- then make a chart and show us what everyone reports as monthly programmer salaries around the world
You are all programmers right? ; ) should be a piece of cake ...
Genoki San
Quote2012-05-04 06:03:00
I work in the western part of austria. With 10 years experience in java without a degree I earn 44k/year.
someGuy
Quote2012-05-04 06:54:00
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